Curse

Drewfense · Jan 21, 2007, 06:03 PM // 18:03

This post may seem kinda random, but I am interested in what hard core PvEers think of the idea and the possibility that a dev might read it.

There seems to be an increasing repeativeness in PvE. The theme of Factions and Nightfall (and likely future chapters) is to add difficulty by increasing damage output. For example, the boss bonus in both chapters is double damage and increased cast time leading to considerably higher DPS. Elementalists dominate the PvE landscape, in Realm of Torment a Deep Freeze can easily lead to a party wipe. Domain of Anguish, the elite PvE mission, is a perfect example where the challenge is level 28 monsters using "Enraged," a damage boosting stance.

Conversly, the actual skills given to monsters are very lacking. The "monk" the predominated early factions (afflicted monk) used Aegis, Ray of Judgement, Retribution, and Reversal of Fortune. A PvE landscape with high damage enemies with weak bars (especially weak monk bars) encourages a party group with a tank that takes all the damage and everyone else is high DPS nukers. Returning to DoA, one of the most popular builds is a tank who takes all the aggro with SF eles that nuke from a distance. This type of strategy is very effective (and would work in earlier areas as well, but the enemy DPS isn't high enough to make it a necessity), but it is mundane and devalues lesser damage classes. This is one reason that the mesmer is viewed as a weak PvE class, it simply doesn't fit into this strategy.

High damage monsters (with gimped skill bars) also encourages farming. With extremely high DPS and simple builds, it is easier for one to make one man farming builds. This can be proven by anet expanding the skill range in areas causing a reduction in farming or forcing new builds (think adding dying nightmares to UW as a small example).

What if PvE was completely different. Instead of making enemies level 28 and defined by high DPS, give them real skill bars. Staying with monk bars because it is the easiest to see this point. You do not see a reasonable monk build in prophecies till you reach the Ring of Fire with Coventina the Matron. A monk that can actually heal. Similarly there aren't real monk builds in Nightfall till you see a Margonite Ki. Both of these examples are very challenging and of course wouldn't be the PvE norm because they are lvl 28, but what if level 20 monsters with reasonable skill bars was the norm? What if you ran into a group of monsters to see a Boon Prot siting in a Ward Melee or next to a Blinding Surge ele? Real skill bars would force different strategies than "overpowering" the enemy. Character "shut down" would be introduced to PvE. Long ago when I made a mesmer and took it through Ring of Fire, it destroyed ever single boss where a high DPS group would have had problems. It would encourage people to develop in there playing abilities as strategy and tactics would be a greater asset than larger yellow numbers.

Or would that be a bad change? Should developing new strategies (rather than relying on old ones and new one man farming builds) be left to PvP only.

Edit: spelling mistake, sure there is a ton more

Innocent · Jan 21, 2007, 06:07 PM // 18:07

A-RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOing-men.

Best post ever.

Helcaraxe · Jan 21, 2007, 06:23 PM // 18:23

I love you

This has bothered me about factions since it launched. There are better ways to make PvE more challenging. And when I saw the DoA launch I was severely disappointed. The development of gimmick builds in PvE is disheartening (like when I first got my mesmer to the tomb of primeval kings, only to find I couldnt get a group).

If mobs (as well as henchies) were allowed to have 8 skills like players, PvE would automatically be more challenging. And maybe you would run into a group of nothing but necros, and they b-spike your monk the second you are in range. Just co-ordinate the builds of the mobs. Even if each group is running a balanced build it would be better than this random crap. And "Afflicted Monk" does not always have to have the same skill bar. One afflicted monk could be a healer, one a prot, and one a smite, hell maybe one is a 55.

Just mix it up.

Vermilion Okeanos · Jan 21, 2007, 06:30 PM // 18:30

I say go with the fashion of "shadow of colossus" style.

Give us one huge monster like urgoz but don't give us those small little long track BS that force us to stay there for 3 hours. I remember the day when people first find out about bone dragon, people would go out of their way just to get their butt handed to them; it wasnt until release that bone dragon were just a weakling and ignored, then it came back strong again, but strong in a different way. I would really like alot more places like majesty's rest.

For example, 4 colossus that travel across a continent. The players can run around the continent in searching for it. Everytime you enter a zone with a colosus, the enviorment color theme is entirely different, hence telling the player it is there. (so no traveling across the explorable area just to not find it)

Basically the principle is, give more fast pace fun to PvEers. You can just log on and go in to have have fun, and feel deeply satisfied after playing it. Hence,
Defeating Strong monster = satisfaction
Not requiring to go through 3 hours = fast pace
Decent rewards = ++satisfaction
Changing enviorment = freshness

Knight_Blazer · Jan 21, 2007, 06:31 PM // 18:31

I also noticed the same thing with blocking stances on PVE enemies (Lightning reflexes, whirldwind defence, shield stance, bonettis). Very few enemies have them because it would make battles last a lot longer unless you bring Wild Blow along. The same goes for efficient heals. The battles can easily be a standstill (like that Charr in prophecies that spammed heal area :9 or some monk bosses) which is not very fun for PVE players. True it would demand more party variety (members who can destroy stances, interrupt healing etc) but battles would be a lot less fast paced.

Drewfense · Jan 21, 2007, 06:44 PM // 18:44

8 skills on a bar that were slightly thought out. Secondary professions for enemies. Enemies randomly select from a couple bars in each area (like Diablo...there was multiple enemy group types that could be spawned in each area).

All are very easy to institute and require no change to the current AI. Just a change in their skill bar. I think it would make a very interesting, and fun, chapter 4.

ayanaftw · Jan 21, 2007, 06:53 PM // 18:53

ramdonized skill bar within certain attributes would be interesting

FoxBat · Jan 21, 2007, 06:54 PM // 18:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drewfense

Returning to DoA, one of the most popular builds is a tank who takes all the aggro with SF eles that nuke from a distance. This type of strategy is very effective (and would work in earlier areas as well, but the enemy DPS isn't high enough to make it a necessity), but it is mundane and devalues lesser damage classes.

Real skill bars aren't going to save the DoA. A SandStorm spike that catches 4 of your players (because there's no maneuvering room in HoH) will lead to at least one death no matter what bar the 2 monks are running. That is basically what the mobs are dealing with when they can't run from AoE because they are being constantly KD'd from meteor showers and traps they are stupid enough to stand in.

In more general terms for other locations, a number of things that would make the game much more pvp-like (res sigs, groups having at least 2 healers with good bars, etc.) tend to frustrate pvers with never-dying mobs and so are probably out. Although you might be able to get away with this setup for an elite mission. The dueling houses quest in Kurzick lands starts to approximate this and is one of my favorites.

aubray1741 · Jan 21, 2007, 07:00 PM // 19:00

Having the same mobs also have different builds would also be interesting. Imagine if you just killed a mob with a monk that had a HB healer, the next mob of monsters of the same race had a Divert Hexes monk instead.

Eris Kallisti · Jan 21, 2007, 07:06 PM // 19:06

Thirded. I've been wanting this for a long time, actually. And it doesn't even need to be amazing AI--as long as it can run the bars decently well. Furthermore, this would encourage creativity, since there would be multiple strategies and builds to cope with enemies, and not simply maximizing a single concept (tank/nuke).

Edit: er, it was third when I wrote it. >.>

Edit2: a lot of people are complaining about things that make PvE last too long and frustrate PvE players. But typically it's the fact that it's a level 28 boss with the decent skill bar that makes things frustrating. Normal enemies with decent bars would not be crazy like this, and would actually make your team more able to cope with the boss, because you now have to meta against it.

Happy · Jan 21, 2007, 07:31 PM // 19:31

/Signed

And why would good PvE monster bars frustrate anyone? With the exception of hardcore farm monkeys (who are playing the wrong game anyway) i'm pretty sure everyone would love to be challanged a bit, being challanged and succeeding is a lot more rewarding then pressing C+Space Bar

FoxBat · Jan 21, 2007, 07:41 PM // 19:41

You do remember all the complaints about the Kournian priests kiting yeah? Often people don't want to adjust their playstyle, and it gets very frustrating when you hit something your playstyle can't deal with, which is rare in existing PvE. And we all know how dead DoA is compared to the prophecies "elite" areas that have been out forever.

Future chapters would also need to be much smaller in area... groups with real healers and rez's take much more time to kill. That means less drops/xp and longer treks unless the areas are designed around it.

Drewfense · Jan 21, 2007, 07:54 PM // 19:54

Optimaly, better skill bars would be in place of greater damage. I agree that a different character bar on a DoA enemy would be pointless if you run up to a mob and the whole party gets wiped by a single Churning Earth. The idea is instead of facing the challenge of high DPS, you face a much more varied and interesting challenge. The negative is some areas will be annoying. It is annoying when you enter an area and half the enemies have defensive stances or spam diversion

but with each new chapter, there are more and more counters added to the game. Use them.

Mobs may take longer to kill. Making monsters run from AoE slowed down PvE. The difference with expanding skill bars is that it not only makes PvE slower (at first at least, till people evolve new strategies), but discourages one man farming. One man farming is what causes anet to reduce drops. This has been shown in every advanced area of the game. UW nerfing of ecto drops. Urgoz reduction of gold chests.

Less farming means better average drops (and better market prices even since things aren't farmed to oblivion), rewarding party style play. Which seems good to me

Edit: This sums it up very well

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eris Kallisti

Edit2: a lot of people are complaining about things that make PvE last too long and frustrate PvE players. But typically it's the fact that it's a level 28 boss with the decent skill bar that makes things frustrating. Normal enemies with decent bars would not be crazy like this, and would actually make your team more able to cope with the boss, because you now have to meta against it.

Undressed · Jan 21, 2007, 07:56 PM // 19:56

I do like the idea a lot. Making spawns versatile and different based on thoughtout builds, having to bring in actual counters rather than outdamaging the monters' healing. Might boost the recruitment of underused classes like Mesmers. GLF Migraine - HoH-scrubs welcome!

Quote:

Originally Posted by FoxBat

You do remember all the complaints about the Kournian priests kiting yeah?

Coming back from many months off-GW and entering Nightfall I was overly happy being able to use Bulls Strike on my hammer warrior to knock these kiters down. Always happy to chase them. I don't like the current overpowering concept. Besides these necessary gameplay changes I would prefer better animations throughout cutscenes rather than the characters doing stupid emotes like /clap /cheer. Pseudo "Lip-Synch" is a good start however, much appreciated.

Eris Kallisti · Jan 21, 2007, 08:11 PM // 20:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by FoxBat

...groups with real healers and rez's take much more time to kill.

This is only because no one is prepared for them. If such groups were everywhere, people would bring things to deal with them. As mentioned, they're only a problem now because no one builds to cope with them, and when they do see a real healer, it's a level 28 boss.

One thing that makes Guild Wars unique is that there is an emphasis on mitigation (of damage or of defense). But PvE is currently all about making your yellow numbers bigger than their blue numbers.

Edit: I am pro at posting late.

EliteOwner · Jan 21, 2007, 08:13 PM // 20:13

/Signed
No more retribution bonding healers. Some intelligent bars may make things much more interesting in the next chapters.. Go Drew Go!

Racthoh · Jan 21, 2007, 08:32 PM // 20:32

Monsters with a full 8 skills and second professions would be a welcome change from level 29 monsters that auto-attack for triple digit hits. However, unless I could still clear the storyline with a group of 7 other AI heroes/henchmen I'm not going to have as much fun. I hate pugging, and there aren't always guildies around when you need them. I like to take my time, randoms don't.

DoA is somewhat restricting on your choice of skills simply because of the amount of damage you have to reduce in order to be successful. Once the areas start to become harder and harder, the variety of builds used in those areas are going to be minimal resulting in a very stagnant experience. Look at a place like the Fissure of Woe and The Underworld, and there are groups ranging from various sizes with a variety of builds.

I have no problems with the flat out storyline being easy to moderately tough, the experience should be designed with every type of gamer in mind. The most rewarding and fun PvE experiences personally have come from self-imposed challenges and the endgame quests in Tyria. Last Day Dawns, Defend North Krya Province... they were all very challenging (makes me think they should restrict the party size on future "challenge" areas). The only rewards were experience, so you know there weren't just people trying to make a buck doing them; they were there for the challenge of it all.

Arkantos · Jan 21, 2007, 09:32 PM // 21:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by FoxBat

You do remember all the complaints about the Kournian priests kiting yeah?

Kournan priests along with many other casters didn't kite, they ran away without stopping.

Keithark · Jan 21, 2007, 09:59 PM // 21:59

/signed

lvl 20-22 max on mobs and lvl 22-24 boss with full skill bar..should be easy to change, they already have the programming for it (hero's) just have to make up the skill bars and presto much more challenging game that would take me longer than 2 days to get a character thru

Kakumei · Jan 21, 2007, 10:34 PM // 22:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Racthoh

a group of 7 other AI heroes/henchmen

Being able to specify at least half your party's bar should be enough.

Oh, and I fully agree with the idea. I'd like the idea of actually feeling like I'm accomplishing something--when I can take a full group of heroes/hench, run into a mob, and then alt-tab for a couple minutes and find the enemies dead when I come back--the game is too easy.